Game of Thrones Recap & Review Podcast: S4 E3: Breaker of Chains

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Welcome to another amazing spoiler-ific episode of GeekNation’s Game of Thrones Recap and Review. This week we are talking incestous sex, creepy alliances and whether it’s better to be practical or good! We are the incredibly book savvy Jenna Busch (@JennaBusch) and GeekNation Queen, Clare Kramer (@ClareKramer).

Enjoy today’s “Game of Thrones” recap of “Breaker of Chains,” and weigh in on the big controversy! Make sure to subscribe and comment here and on iTunes.

If you love “Game of Thrones” as much as we do, you’ll love GeekNation’s .GIF recap!

  • ashagreyjoy

    Aside from just not wanting to see more rape on this show (they like to add more in an already pretty gruesome world), I think a lot of people’s (especially book readers) gripes with that alter scene between Jaime and Cercei, is that it doesn’t make sense with Jaime’s characterization. He’s probably one of the most anti-rape male characters in the entire series. He has a history of being disgusted by the act: As a member of the King’s Guard he had to stand guard, helplessly, outside the Mad King’s chambers and listen to him rape Queen Rhaella (Dany’s mother) and had to see the queen the next day covered in scratches and bruises and he thought “But she’s the Queen…aren’t we sworn to protect her too? Even from him?”, he had to experience basically the same thing with Cercei (the person he cares for the most in the entire world) when Robert used to hit her and force himself on her. He stopped Brienne from being assaulted and had his hand cut off because of it…he even thinks to himself that if he was a woman he’s rather die than be raped…the examples go on and on. I also think that Jaime blames himself a great deal for not doing something about Queen Rhaella, but especially Cercei…in fact, imo…I think he allows her to treat him so poorly sometimes because of his guilt for “letting” Robert do those things…and feels like he deserves for her to lash out on him. It was clear that in books it was 100% consensual, at first there was a bit of hesitation (well, who would want to bang in front of their son’s corpse in a church? hellooooo…) but it became pretty clear that Cercei consented to it by repeatedly saying “yes, Jaime…yes…do it quick…” and moaning his name…etc…I think that this scene was just blatant rape, if not they should have at least kept in that line or a something similar instead of substituting in “Why did the gods make me love someone so hateful!?” (roughly quoted, I don’t remember the exact line) – which sounds pretty violent and out of character for him. At this point in Jaime’s arc, Cercei is still his number one priority, and that entire scene in the books was more of him comforting her because she was depressed and afraid. It seemed like it was done for shock value, imo…which doesn’t make sense when you consider that this scene is already happening between a brother and sister (there’s your shock value)…overkill. Much like every other character on this show, Jaime is flawed…but he’s not a rapist.

  • For those of you who wanted to see Myrcella Baratheon’s (Aimee Richardson) Vine that I mentioned, here it is! https://vine.co/v/MJp2KxmPei1

  • Gia

    Maybe I’ve been hardened by tv, but this scene really didn’t give me much shock feels. It was more of the ick factor. And I don’t understand people trying to make Jamie a good person. He’s an incestuous ass who tried to kill a child.

  • Jake B

    you guys talked about the arya tywien scene for season 3 & him not wanting to reveal that he knew who she was. do they ever spell that out? I know he never bought the stories she gave, but do we know that for sure?

    • We don’t. It seemed that he did, though if so, it’s odd that he did nothing about it. Still up in the air. I’d love to hear what you guys think.

      • Tywin didn’t know that she was Arya. He knew that she was highborn by the way she said “my lord” instead of “m’lord.” And also the fact that she can read. The one person I think did recognize her but they don’t make clear is Littlefinger. He stared at her a little too long.

  • FYI: It was Ilyn Payne that was recast because the actor has cancer, not the Mountain. Yikes!

    • fmiii

      But you are still correct that The Mountain has been recast… for the second time.

      • Goodness, I’m glad I got it half right!!!! 🙂

  • If you guys are interested, here is what George R.R. Martin had to say about THAT scene and how it was changed from what he wrote in the book. http://grrm.livejournal.com/367116.html?thread=19030284#t19030284

    • ashagreyjoy

      Pretty diplomatic response. I have a feeling George doesn’t have much of a say in what happens on the show, but he’s always careful about stepping on D&D’s toes. However, he has said in the past that a few of their changes are going to be a problem in the future.

      SPOILER TALK BELOW!!!!:
      Jenna, I don’t know if you’ve heard of this before…but apparently George said that it’s going to be a problem in the future that the show has written off the other Tyrell brothers Willas and Garland, and he’s hinted that some show deaths might also become an issue. Do you think it would have much of an impact that they’ve excluded the other Tyrells? I’m thinking it might because of “The Grand Tyrell Conspiracy” theory. Also, do you think LSH is going to happen? Maybe in the finale? I was hoping for her at the end of season 3…but that reveal does only take place at the end of ASoS and that would make sense.

      • I’ll be really interested to see how they handle it. This scene (and the Daenerys wedding night scene) aside, I’ve been fine with the changes they’ve made. Now, LSH, I’m not sure. Considering the performer’s current gig, it seems like they might not, but I think it could go either way. It WOULD be perfect for the finale. I’m really hoping they do!!!

  • the writers claim it became consensual at the end??? … Cersei (crying) “It’s not right” … Jamie: “I don’t care” … consensual? what is wrong with these men who wrote this?

    • I know! It’s strange. I’d love to see the original script and other cuts. In the book, she says things that indicate that she’s into it.

      SPOILERS FOR THE BOOK BELOW, BUT IT’S ALL ABOUT THE RAPE/NOT RAPE SCENE:

      • yeah …. just ‘a little different’ … unless they continue somehow in the next episode – what happened in that scene was rape and it never turned consensual … not even a little bit – unless the director thinks giving in is consent ;-( … and a male making the claim that it wasn’t is really really disheartening … there is enough misogyny in this world of GRRM’s … they don’t need to drag our issues with consent into it as well ;-/ … that is so disappointing …

        • ashagreyjoy

          It’s really disappointing and tragic when you think about Cercei’s history, as well. Despite all of the heinous stuff she’s done to others (not making excuses for her)…she still is a tragic character in the sense that she’s never had any real agency of her own life as an ambitious and powerful woman in a very sexist society and has a history of sexual abuse. The constant power struggle she has with Robert, her father, Tyrion, her own son…Jaime was the only person that she trusts with her life, and didn’t overlook her needs and what she wanted. That whole relationship was icky being incest and all that…but it really is the only one that Cercei ever consented to (aside from sleeping with Lancel, but I think that was more out of necessity and because she missed Jaime). It does bother me that this was done to her character, as well as not making any sense with Jaime’s arc.

          • I would perhaps feel differently if other women in similar positions ended up half as evil and vicious as her … sorry to say – my problem isn’t that she was raped in and of itself because I have NO sympathy for that woman – but that they took a scene from the books where she explicitly says yes – to one that she clearly says no to the end … and it really really disgusts me that the director thought there was any willingness at all ;-/

          • ashagreyjoy

            I see where you’re coming from, I’m in no way defending her character or justifying her actions (I mean…she was even worse in the books and they have diluted how evil she is on the show: i.e. ordering the killing of Robert’s bastards). I think it’s more of a personal reaction from me with the sympathy…I just don’t like it and felt gross on her behalf. I know what you mean, though…the situation itself with explicit consent vs THIS…I have no idea how anyone can see that as a situation that eventually turned into consent.

  • David Johnson

    John Snow saying they need to go kill some Ex Brothers was the beginning of his coming out bad ass!

  • David Johnson

    Plus don’t be sure the Squire & Concubine are out of the story!

  • Rusty Patti

    Cersei, while not my favorite character is fascinating. I’m over 1/2 way through A Feast for Crows in my re-read of the ASoIaF. I just realized that Cersei despises Sansa because she was like Sansa when she was younger. Cersei was starry-eyed about marrying Rhaegar and then she learned a hard lesson and was stuck with Robert.

  • Another great episode! Was it rape? Yes. The timeline change from the book does make sense why it would be consensual in the book. In the show, Jamie’s main determination to get back to Kings Landing is to see Cersei and Cersei blames him for being gone and all the crap she’s had to endure. Is it a reason to rape? Hell no! I honestly just thought it was weird that this was happening in front of dead Joffrey. Which happens in the book too, that was weird as well.

    • ashagreyjoy

      Friendly reminder that Cercei also had her moon blood and Jaime wiped it off with his gold cloak. The “weird” never stops. I’m so sorry…

  • Rusty Patti

    and also my pick for ending up on the Iron Throne – Sansa (she’s learning to play the Game of Thrones from the best), Hand of the Queen – Tyrion, Commander of the Queen’s Guard – Brienne, Master of Whispers Arya.

  • I love how Tywin begins to talk about the birds and the bees to Tommen as they walk out. Also, kind of a slap to the face to Cersei by Tywin during the lecture to Tommen.

  • 4l3x T0rr3s

    I think it’s not a rape because in the books it’s consensual. She does complain a bit “No, not here” blahblah, but she never stops him and when I read that part I was left with the impression she also wanted him. In the show you never know what’s in their heads, so if the director says it was consensual by the end, I think that’s the way it is, because he is the one that knows what the characters are thinking.

    Tommen’s age in the books, from AWOIF: “He opens the series as a child of seven year”, so by the time he’s king he’s probably 8.

    My favorite part of the episode was of course Dany and her speech. I <3 her 😀

  • Seth L. Ganier

    I think the fallout over the rape scene is a huge social quandary. It appears that the definition of rape–both physical and nationally legal–is either widely unknown, perceived as something interchangeable, or is being altogether ignored, which is somewhat… I would say “disappointing,” but I’m honestly not disappointed, for that would insinuate a level of shock or surprise, in which case there is none. I think the better word is that I’m simply exhausted. I’m somewhat exhausted of
    observing failed attempts at communication–though here on GeekNation, the comments seem to be more appropriate and respectful, which is totally awesome.. The insults people have thrown at each other don’t solve the issue, nor do they further any helpful insight.

    So, having that said… Why not make this as simple as possible for the two general opposing sides?

    One of many definitions of rape: “The unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.”

    We can either use this one, or use another one, but whichever definition we decide to discuss, I’m positive it’s in our best interest to make it clear what we’re defining. This just happens to be the one I’ve decided to use for this example. If we do in fact use the above statement, then we’re getting closer to a realistic answer–though certainly, we are able to explore other definitions if desired, especially since it does vary in different cultures–some include oral while others have a
    separate definition, for example.

    Using the above definition:

    In the scene, did Jaime use physical force? Based on what I’ve observed,
    I’d say yes–Cercei verbally stating “no,” physically struggling against his
    stature, etc. If you disagree, please explain.

    In the scene, did Jaime use physical force or duress–coercion–to have sexual
    intercourse with his sister, Cercei Lannister? Again, based on what I’ve
    observed, I would say yes. If you disagree, please explain.

    I’m not going to insult anyone for giving their honest opinion, but please,
    if you disagree, I am very curious as to which definition you’re
    currently using, and if you would oblige, I’d like to know what your
    thoughts are when using the example I’ve selected. And also, worthy of note:

    I’m going based on the show itself. I’ve read the books, but the show is a separate adaptation, and so I do exclude it from my opinion for the following reasons:

    1. The adaptation is simply not the original, and changes have been made. For example, we can all agree that Daenerys’ eyes are not violet in the show, even though they’re violet in the books. We wouldn’t proclaim that her eyes are visibly violet, because that’s simply not true. So saying that because Jaime didn’t rape Cercei in the books is completely irrelevant to what we’ve seen–especially for those who’ve never read through the books and are in fact, basing all their sensory knowledge on the scene in question.

    2. A = A, B = B, C = C, and Rape = Rape. Rape is not equal to consent, and based on the show alone, consent is not at all apparent (though it may be made apparent in future episodes) in this particular scene.

    So that’s all I have to say about that.

  • Denton

    I know some people have their issues with Sansa’s character, but I would say we’ve reached the point in the show now when Sansa becomes a much more interesting and dynamic character.