Game of Thrones Recap & Review Podcast: S4 E6: The Laws of Gods and Men

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In today’s Game of Thrones recap & review, we’re joined by Eureka and Haven star Colin Ferguson for The Laws of Gods and Men.

Join Jenna Busch (@JennaBusch), Clare Kramer (@ClareKramer) and Colin Ferguson (@colinferg) as they discuss Shae’s motive, Tywin’s scheming and the proper name for a group of dragon eggs.

Make sure to subscribe and comment here and on iTunes!

If you love “Game of Thrones” as much as we do, you’ll love GeekNation’s GIF recap!

  • Seth L. Ganier

    It’s working.

    • Keaton G. Wolfe

      Yes. And it is perfect.

      • Seth L. Ganier

        Yes. Perfect. Yes.

  • ashagreyjoy

    Great podcast episode as always!

    – In terms of Shireen, Stannis does acknowledge her as his trueborn heir. In the books it’s clear that he loves her and sees her as such a lot more than on the show (aside from the most awkward dinner scene ever ever a few episodes back). I wont get too much into specifics because of possible spoilers, but there’s a particular chapter where he’s talking to one of his men and makes him vow that if something were to happen to him during the war, that he would promise to put Shireen, his lawful daughter and heir, on the throne. With greyscale, it’s kind of like a crazy, fantasy version of the chicken pox (I think this was pointed out by Jenna earlier, actually) where it’s fatal to adults, but when caught during infancy there’s a much higher chance of survival…although the disease does stay in your body permanently, it’s usually dormant and harmless…well…unless it comes back again (DUN DUN DUN!). The grey scaling and disfigurement on Shireen’s face is a common side effect and scaring from the actual disease, which is where the name comes from.

    – Good job, Allfie Allen. Reek scenes always break my heart…it comes as no surprise that I’ve pledged my allegiance to the Kraken (hello screen name!)…I was so happy to see Yara/Asha and her speech at the beginning was one of my favourite parts and like Jenna is a Sansa apologist (thank you, btw…she’s my other favourite) I’m a Greyjoy siblings apologist and these scenes are basically emotional torture porn for me. I think that Yara knew that there was no point, her brother is a broken man and although it broke her heart to leave him behind, there’s no such thing as grief counselling/PTSD therapy in a world like this. Half of her men were killed in the fight, and she was covered in blood that was sure to send Ramsay’s hounds into a frenzy…she cut her loses and had to run away. I think other Ironborn would fight until they die, but rational/intelligent Yara knows when to bow out if she wants to live to another day and continue fighting.

    – Dead Beat Mother of Dragon’s is interesting, I think the goats scene this ep was possibly a setup for worse to come. Dany is losing focus with her white saviour complex. I respect that she’s trying to take back control of the situation and take responsibility for her actions…but I think she’s gonna need a much harder wake up call to think about what’s important. Her dragons, Westeros…going home.

    – Dragons have no fixed gender. From the wiki: “according to Maester Aemon dragons are; “…but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame” presumably meaning that they are able to change from one sex to the other for whatever reason.” On the subject of her dragons…I hope that she names them soon. She hasn’t on the show and I want my dragon names, dammit!

    – Oberyn was at an expert sass level this episode. Here’s something fun: http://tumblrofthrones.tumblr.com/post/85525287183

    • LOVE that Tumblr link!! I fully support your Matriarchy!!! And I was waiting for the naming as well!!!! 🙂

      • I don’t think you mentioned the bounty put on the Hound. I thought that was a big deal, and Tywin insulting Cersei for letting Selmy go was great. And poor Mace, he just wants to fit in. Great show once again. The podcast I mean. 🙂

        • Thanks Angel! And you’re right. This was a packed show in terms of detail. It seemed deceptively short because there were relatively few scenes, but it really was! 🙂

          • ashagreyjoy

            Oh yeah, I forgot that you asked if book readers had any problems with changes. I apologise if this is really long winded and TLDR. Most of my qualms with the adaptation have a lot to do with my personal preference. I think that the show runners have obvious favourites and they tend to focus most of that attention on those characters (i.e. Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya…etc…) Which makes sense because they are major POV characters and usually universal fan favourites as well, but I think characters like Sansa, Bran and especially Catelyn, suffer a lot and they are also MAJOR POV characters. I think that the choice to put more focus on Robb (who was never a POV character), ultimately ruined Catelyn’s characterization (there was actually very little, tbh…and imo, the characterization they included did not fit her AT ALL…see that “…because I couldn’t love a motherless child” scene A.K.A. “Cat-Gate 2013” – according to her fans, myself included. The only time I felt like they tried with her was The Red Wedding, and well…she died.) From a meta standpoint and the overarching themes in the story, I think Martin’s goal was to write an epic fantasy series that included the usual tropes (Sansa with the typical fantasy princess, Arya/Brienne/Asha-Yara with the bad ass sword wielding heroine, Cercei with the evil queen, Jon typical fantasy hero, Joffrey the brat king…etc…) but he also wanted to bust a lot of those tropes and focus a lot of attention on the character we usually wouldn’t see in fantasy, or who otherwise would just be set pieces and in the background…like Tyrion for one….and Catelyn, who was a POV we never get “The Hero/Boy King’s Mother” :

            “I wanted to make a strong mother character. The portrayal of women in epic fantasy has been problematical for a long time. These books are largely written by men but women also read them in great, great numbers. And the women in fantasy tend to be very atypical women… They tend to be the woman warrior or the spunky princess who wouldn’t accept what her father lays down, and I have those archetypes in my books as well. However, with Catelyn there is something reset for the Eleanor of Aquitaine, the figure of the woman who accepted her role and functions with a narrow society and, nonetheless, achieves considerable influence and power and authority despite accepting the risks and limitations of this society. – GRRM on Catelyn Stark”

            I feel like the show lost on an opportunity to really dive deep and explore that, which is what Martin initially intended and opted to actually feed into the trope, that he set out to destroy in the books.

            TLDR; I like Cat..I wish we got more Cat.

            SPOILER!!!:
            Also, I think the impact of LSH is going to be lost or underwhelming for a lot of viewers because of this as well.

          • As always, your insights are spot on. 🙂 I totally agree about Catelyn! You know I love the show, but she was difficult for me. I adore Michelle Fairley, but I wasn’t thrilled about they “motherless child” scene. I also agree about focusing on Robb.

          • ashagreyjoy

            Same, it was kind of a constant struggle for me. There were literally scenes where people would talk over her, like with the Blackfish, for example that were almost comical how bad it was. I know that a lot of fans in general don’t like her, she isn’t particularly a fan favourite…but I think to say that they did her character justice, doesn’t really make sense…no matter how much you dislike her. I love Michelle Fairley too! They cast her perfectly and again…more frustration because to think what Michelle could have done with the role if they gave her even a portion of the attention the text supported. Oh boy…and the whole infidelity angle of her misplaced resentment with Jon. Yes, Catelyn resent him, yes…I’m sure a part of her is jealous…but logically; it has a lot more to do with her honour. If your only role as a woman in this patriarchal world is to bear children and have strong heirs for your husband….to have him come back with a child he had with a stranger (which she understood in a time of war and her and Ned were also strangers at that point), and to raise him with YOUR OWN children, was a slap in the face. Catelyn, as a woman and Lady of Winterfel…was subjected to shame and gossip among Westeros entirely as seen as weak and stupid for “allowing” that from people like Cercei…etc. Not to mention how bastards are seen as treacherous (Look at the Blackfyre Rebellion) and the possibility of her own children losing their claims. Sure, Catelyn is flawed..but who else isn’t on this show…Jon is her weakness and her lapse in judgement. Also…hello…thanks Ned for being so closed off and not trusting your wife, even years after the fact and your bastard son is now a man, think of how much more understanding she would have been if her husband wasn’t so shady and closed off about it. For her to pray for him to die…and then to take it back and promise that she will make him legitimate (she doesn’t have that kind of power to legitimize him and she would never pray for a child to die!!!) makes no sense, especially coming from a woman who in her POV talks about feeling pity for him and his mother, and prays to the Warrior for Jon Snow up at The Wall…also, that’s not the most interesting thing about her character…or Jon’s for that matter.

    • Yes, agreed on the Dragons’ sex. The guy who play Hazdahr was really good I thought, he made you feel bad for him. Emilia did a great job with her facial expressions in that scene as well.

      I have to say, SPOILER!

      Everytime they speak about Dany and her dragons around Oberyn they cut to him. The look on his face is great! You know what I’m talking about.

      • ashagreyjoy

        I liked Hizdahr as well, the guy they picked is also pretty dreamy so I’m happy with the choice, looking forward to seeing more of him.

        SPOILER!:
        YESSSSS!!!! I’ve noticed that too…oh man, I can’t wait until they get deep into the Martell storyline next season. I can’t wait for Doran, Arianne and the Sandsnakes. That reveal at the end of that Arianne chapter was so epic….it’s going to be wonderful.

  • Jake B

    your guys’s bad name day continued to the end- i think you meant gendry not renly. he can’t be arya’s friend b/c he a little dead. no worries i get my t’s mixed up too (i still ocasionally say tyrion when i mean tywin and vice versa). addressing the who should rule, arya’s my favorite character, but i agree that she’s going down a really dark path & feels more like a hand of the king/queen. out of the likely candidates danny is probably the strongest because she’s already learning how to lead, but her initial actions after taking the throne would scare me (ie what she would do for revenge) because it might turn people against her, but hopefully she’s learned from her mistake in meere (i hope i got that place right)

    another couple of novelty suggestions that will never happen: i think oberin would actually be a good choice. i don’t find him to be cruel, except when it comes to what happened to his sister, but who can blame him. other than that he seems like a really good ruler. his brother is king of dorn so he’s not getting that throne & if he finds out the lannisters were more involved with the mountain’s actions than tywin let on, you never know…

    also, as much as i love margery’s character, i also think, given what she’s experienced, sansa would make a good queen (amazing how far she’s come in my opinion, she was one of my least favorite characters of season 1, right behind danny’s brother) & have a good moderating effect on whomever was king. she knows how to protect herself in a complex political climate. i don’t think she has the steel needed to rule herself (that could change though), but i think her experiences would make her a good moderating influence on whoever was king

    • Yes!!! We totally did. 🙂 Ah, Monday mornings. I agree about Sansa, but you know I love her.

  • xShineyxDiverx

    I think you guys give waaaay too much credit to D&D and GRRM. He signed over everything and I highly doubt he’s in the writers room when he’s, ya know, doing MANY other things and presumably writing two more final books.

    I am quite sure if they decided to kill Tyrion in tonight’s episode GRRM couldn’t do squat to stop them because he signed his rights and such over there. At least to my knowledge. It’s sweet that you guys want to optimistically believe that “D&D wouldn’t do something GRRM didn’t sign off on” but that’s not how it works.

  • Pat Sponaugle

    I kind of wish Jenna hadn’t been talking so openly about the possible parentage of a certain individual. I have friends who haven’t read the books, and are trying not to be spoiled. It’s all speculation, I agree, but since the show hasn’t overtly covered the same ground with the same detail, someone who just watches the show and is trying to avoid in-depth speculation would be in for too much information in this podcast.

    I think it’s cool to talk about differences in the show and the books, but it’s probably best not to provide that much more info than the show does, unless you give a heads up spoiler warning. There’s a certain level of casual speculation that is fine, but it’s best done on-air by those who haven’t read the books, since it puts the podcaster and listening on more equal footing.

    • I totally understand, but that particular one isn’t a spoiler. No one knows who the parents are. Even book readers. It’s just popular speculation and it’s been a theory since the first book came out.

      • I don’t mind the Jon’s mother thing, it did seem like you were getting pretty close on a couple things. 🙂

      • Pat Sponaugle

        Right, but it’s a popular theory among book readers because we have a lot of details: Ned’s Tower of Joy dream, Meera’s story, lots of accounts of the tournament of the False Spring. That level of detail hasn’t been in the show yet. I am sorry to be a pain, it just struck me too on the nose with both suspected parents being named. Usually theorists hint, hem, and haw in public forums about the parentage.

        • As I said, my friends and I (and lots of others) were speculating about it after we read the first book years ago. I think all of that stuff just fed a theory that was already there.

          • Agreed, it has to do with something that happened before the show and the first book. Any hope to really know was gone with Ned’s death. Unless GRRM reveals something that NONE of us know. Its pure speculation and a really popular theory, nothing wrong with that.

          • Thank you!!!! 🙂

          • Dez

            Why is it that the dragons have to have their meat fully cooked before eating it? I mean, they’re dragons!! You’d never catch Mufasa bringing home a gazelle saying, “Fire up the grill Sarabi! I got us a nice meal here but we don’t want to catch food poisoning!”

            And where does Dany get the coin to pay back all these mistakes her dragons make? She just whip out her Iron Bank black card and say “Oh, it’s ok. The money’s good. Don’t worry!” (???) 🙂

          • Haha! This comment is awesome! In my head she has an ATM card from the Iron Bank with a picture of a dragon on it. 🙂

  • Burasuta

    My choice for who will be the 2 champions of Tyrion’s trial are: Cersei will choose the Mountain (since Jamie is gimped) as her champion, when she does, Oberyn will step up to be Tyrion’s champion.

  • The Duke of Zill

    I think Jenna might have spoiled an upcoming reveal when she says “it wasn’t sheep in the books” and then confirming that people were getting burnt by the dragons. In the books it WAS sheep and goats that were getting burnt and taken at first and then the shock is that one day a herder comes to Dany and presents charred bones (everyone assuming it’s another ‘dragons eating livestock’ story) then it’s revealed to be a child. This event propels the ‘Dany and her dragons’ storyline in a new direction, one that the show will most likely still adapt. I think Jenna might have jumped the gun there.

    • Pat Sponaugle

      I thought the same thing, Duke.

    • HyperJ

      Yes, I like the podcast (a good female perspective), but Jenna REALLY jumped the gun there. A massive spoiler for the end of the season.

      Jenna… Please lay off the sentences starting with “in the book…” (Or reduce the number of them). The show does re-jigger some events, and sometimes they do get to events in a different sequence than the books. And as Duke points out, the dragon/sheep incident DOES happen several times in the books before the event you revealed.

  • The Duke of Zill

    “I don’t think I’m revealing to much when I say……”

    IMMEDIATELY REVEALS TOO MUCH

    • Wookton

      My God. That’s such a great reveal in the books and will be in the show and she just flat out spoils it. Some people just don’t think…

  • 4l3x T0rr3s

    I loved the episode, specially Peter Dinklage.

    On dragons gender: “Dragons have no fixed gender differentiation – according to Maester Aemon dragons are “but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame” presumably meaning that they are able to change from one sex to the other for whatever reason.”

    Source: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dragon

    The only thing I was mad about in the show is when they cut most of the House of the Undying stuff out. That was one of my favorite parts of A Clash of Kings.

    Ygritte <3

    • Yeah, I loved that as well and was sad to see it cut.

  • HyperJ

    FYI – the “You’re welcome” tweet was not from the real GRRM. He is not on twitter. And he does not control the show, even though the show-runners do communicate with him.

  • AMP

    So is Shireen’s greyscale just a disease or does it have anything to do with being descended from dragons? I think the Baratheon’s are distantly related to the Targaryen’s (who supposedly have some dragon blood). And do the books say anything about how Bronn found Shae? Now I’m wondering if Tywin set that whole thing up.

    • ashagreyjoy

      As far as I know it’s just a disease…it is more common/usually found in cold and damp climates like the Iron Islands and Dragonstone (which explains how Shireen caught it). You’re right there is some Targ blood in the Baratheon family (I think Robert’s grandmother was a Targaryen, but it’s been a while since I looked at family trees) it’s probably just a coincidence…but who knows if it will come into play later.

      I don’t remember that part of the book, but Bronn did steal her from another tent in the Lannister camp, so she is telling the truth.

      • AMP

        oh, thanks!

  • Seth L. Ganier

    “I… Tommen Baratheon… Will be stepping away from this case, temporarily giving my duties over to the new Hand of the King… Chris Hansen.”

    Enter Chris Hansen:

    “Tyrion, have a seat. Now it says here you wanted to bleep her bleep in the red keep. But on your Facebook page, you claim that ‘The Seven Rock,’ insinuating that you’re a very devout person. Explain that to me.”

    “…It’s clear to me that I’m on trial… for being a dwarf.”

    “Well, I need to tell you, Tyrion. You’re not on trial. I’m Chris Hansen, and this is HBO’s To Catch a Lannister.”

  • John DeDominici

    SPOILERS! SPOILERS SPOILERS!!!!!! DON’T READ THIS AND DON’T LISTEN TO THIS PODCAST IF YOU DON’T WANT THIS STORY RUINED FOR YOU.

    I don’t like to be a jerk. I appreciate people that take their time to do podcasts. I love podcasts. I’m trying to put this nicely. What Jenna did was so wrong. I don’t want to add on to her spoilers here, but I have to point these out. The one about the sheep was a mistake…… understood. Revealing to TV show watchers the R+L=J theory is a major, major BOMB. Telling them outright that Ned is not Jon Snow’s father? HOLY SHIT!?! You can try to say it’s not a spoiler because nobody knows for sure, but that’s BS. Then revealing to the other hosts who the champions are after Tyrion’s trial is just wrong, wrong, wrong. You knew you were doing wrong and couldn’t help yourself. Like the Duke said below me….. If you need to start a sentence with “I don’t think I’m revealing too much when I say……” DON’T SAY IT! I obviously have read the books THANK GOD. I can’t possibly be more spoiled, but you ruined this story for some people. No doubt. I don’t have a problem with podcasts that have spoilers, but to act all podcast like you aren’t going to spoil anything and to just drop these bombs on people without warning. I just can’t believe it. Otherwise…. Nice job!

  • onyxwhat

    I feel like you guys kind of missed something about Tyrion’s speech last night: it IS important that Tyrion was looking at the crowd. Tyrion didn’t explode just because Shae went against him, it’s because he finally realized that no-one, not his family, who are all animals, and not the normal people, can ever look past who he was. Everything that Tyrion has suffered has been because he’s a dwarf, and Tyrion learns, at this moment, that none of the good things he has done since–not his love of Shae, or his collaboration with Varys, or his friendship of his brother, or even saving the city–can make him anything other than a dwarf.

  • onyxwhat

    Also, I think that the Mountain was recast because the original actor got cancer?